PC and Pigeon Holes
Posted by: Mike Meade in Uncategorised on
May 10, 2008
I'm not PC (in both senses of the term, but more about that another time) and I don't give a toss whether anyone approves of that or not. Shunning political correctness makes me free to say and do things that the verbally constipated can't. In print there are limits, but only legal ones imposed on all of us by politicians. Politician is a race like "public servant" is. They don't change much from country to country. On the whole they're self-serving halfwits. With a few exceptions.
I once had a black friend I used to call "nigger". Shocks you when you see the word in print, doesn't it? Not to me, and not to him. He thought it was a fitting tag and even called it "cute". A strange thought but anything that pleases my friends is fine with me. We were both young and stupid so he had words for me as well -- most of them insinuations about how small my white penis must be (he couldn't know the truth about that). To be honest, I'd rather be tagged a nigger than some of the things he called me. It's a man thing.
Because I'm un-PC I can pigeonhole entire races and nationalities into single words. Not always accurately perhaps, but I can. Nations and nationalities are more complex than a single word can convey but let's face it -- in a world where there's just too much to think about we all tend to streamline big notions. It leaves some space in our brain boxes for more indispensable things like PIN numbers and passwords.
Back to amalgamating entire countries into one-word. My word for Canadians would be "boring". My word for Americans would be "naive". I don't have one for the French. To paraphrase big CdG, how can you reduce a country with 300 cheeses into a single word? If you like I'll try, but it would take a while. I bet you could think of a few too. Feel free.
I was born Canadian. Much later in life I discovered my joint British nationality almost by accident. The second passport is handy because I can choose which Pakistani official controls my entry at Heathrow. EU or not EU -- I pick the shortest queue. There's a story there also which, again, I'll tell you about another time so let's stick to the Canadian part.
Canadians hate Americans even more than the rest of the world does. Prime Minister Trudeau explained this with an analogy about a mouse sharing a cage with an elephant. Canada is the mouse and Canadians resent it.
It ticks some Canucks off to no end but some of us don't hate the Yanks the way we're supposed to. I do have a few issues with the way they piss in our planetary soup and with the nations they choose as economic allies, but on the whole I can't think of a country that would likely do a better job of running the planet. I'll go into that subject too another time but in the meantime think of this -- what if it were the Brits (remember India?) or the French (remember Algeria?) who were at the controls? And think of this -- when the Chinese take over won't we all be begging for the Americans to come back? Believe me, we will.
About the only time a Canadian stops being boring is when he hears another Canadian being objective and open-minded about the devil next door. It's when their political correctness goes out the window and they almost show they have a personality under all that blandness. It's a Canadian thing.
The other day I was chatting with a young Canadian about Barack Obama's bid for the Democratic presidential nomination. To my mind, more than any other country this shows how far America has come in race relations. Hey, the guy's middle name is Hussein. And Obama sounds iffy too. And he's black. And his preacher friend is a complete nutter. Now honestly, seven years after an event like 9/11 what other nation would be open minded enough to give a chance to a fellow with that profile?
The young Canadian didn't like hearing that so when I added that I thought Barack would eventually lose to McCain, he leapt at the chance, "Obama won't get elected. That's the point, isn't it?". No it isn't. Of course it isn't, you tunnel-visioned blockhead. The point is that a whopping hunk of the American people -- most of them white middle-class -- are willing to give the black guy with the funny name a chance in a way few other countries would. He has a real shot at becoming the most powerful man on the planet. Good on ya, America -- I can now forgive you for imposing that dimwit Bush on us all.
And as for you my Canadian compatriots, I adore the hell out of your boring hides but as a nation you're in no position to preach to anyone. Until you all learn both of your national languages and show a lot more willingness to give national political prominence to a yellow skinned, slant-eyed second-generation immigrant or even to someone of your own native Indian or Eskimo heritage, I reserve my right to believe in your innate disingenuity as a nation. Whether you like it or not, Obama and America are showing the way.
Comments
(42)
Subscribe to this comment's feed
Show/Hide comments
...
written by Dick Kimball , 23 May 2008
written by Dick Kimball , 23 May 2008
...
written by megabyte , 27 May 2008
written by megabyte , 27 May 2008
Oh haha. In that case, what's a one word description of the adjective "French"?
...
written by BaronMuchausen , 27 May 2008
written by BaronMuchausen , 27 May 2008
...oh...you got me....me and my wife describe things as 'French' nowadays.
how about 'inhumane'?
how about 'inhumane'?
...
written by Ghost Girl , 05 June 2008
written by Ghost Girl , 05 June 2008
Supercilious? Yes, sometimes.
Uncouth? On occasion, maybe.
Humourless? Again, sometimes - depends on the person.
French? Definitely! (lol).
Inhumane? Sorry, I'm not following you there, BaronMuchausen. While every country has its proverbial rotten apples, "inhumane" seems an awfully strong and (to my mind) unfair and inappropriate description of French people as a whole (unless you're referring to the way some of their food is prepared).
Would you care to elaborate?
Uncouth? On occasion, maybe.
Humourless? Again, sometimes - depends on the person.
French? Definitely! (lol).
Inhumane? Sorry, I'm not following you there, BaronMuchausen. While every country has its proverbial rotten apples, "inhumane" seems an awfully strong and (to my mind) unfair and inappropriate description of French people as a whole (unless you're referring to the way some of their food is prepared).
Would you care to elaborate?
...
written by SmartyPants , 05 June 2008
written by SmartyPants , 05 June 2008
The Baron can't be serious, at least not in comparison with some places.
You want "inhumane" Ghost Girl? Read the latest government news about the state of the Health Service, the way so many old people have to work until they drop at Tesco because the retirement system is in shambles, the violent crime statistics, the teenage pregnancy rate, the way other counties have to guard against our football "hooligans", the lamentable public services - then you'll know what inhumane is, and it's not France they're talking about.
The Baron is off target by a mile, or by the width of the Channel.
You want "inhumane" Ghost Girl? Read the latest government news about the state of the Health Service, the way so many old people have to work until they drop at Tesco because the retirement system is in shambles, the violent crime statistics, the teenage pregnancy rate, the way other counties have to guard against our football "hooligans", the lamentable public services - then you'll know what inhumane is, and it's not France they're talking about.
The Baron is off target by a mile, or by the width of the Channel.
...
written by BaronMuchausen , 05 June 2008
written by BaronMuchausen , 05 June 2008
listen folks....go to the Prefecture in Nice early in the morning....this is exactly what I mean by inhumane. French people should be ashamed by the way they treat foreigners.
...
written by BaronMuchausen , 05 June 2008
written by BaronMuchausen , 05 June 2008
you know....I wish I filmed what I witnessed that day....i'm probably not the only one to experience this...at least, a few of my other friends seen the same thing.
No matter what statistics you dig up about Britain....i'm safe in the knowledge that our authorities dont behave like that.
No matter what statistics you dig up about Britain....i'm safe in the knowledge that our authorities dont behave like that.
...
written by BaronMuchausen , 05 June 2008
written by BaronMuchausen , 05 June 2008
and smartypants....go to the Stade Du rey if you want a good example of Hooliganism...its absolutely rife in this country.
but i guess you're too wrapped up in your own bubble to see this.
but i guess you're too wrapped up in your own bubble to see this.
...
written by SmartyPants , 06 June 2008
written by SmartyPants , 06 June 2008
No bubble for me Mr Baron. I live in both countries for months at a time and I see the difference. There's good and bad in both but you are using "inhumane" to inaccurately qualify an entire country based upon a few "inhumane" public servants you happen to have.
You've seen a couple of examples of bad behaviour and you use them to judge an entire country. That would be like calling every Briton a knife-killer just because there have been (and there have) several incidents in the past few days.
As for football hooliganism, there's a reason we Brits have the reputation we do, even amongst ourselves. Stade du Rey not withstanding.
There's also a reason why hundreds of thousands of Britons turn their backs on their own country every year (Home Office stats - look them up). And also a reason why young French businessmen and women go to Britain - it's because of the favourable business tax structure, certainly not the "humane" lifestyle.
You generalise based on a few incidents and you're wrong. But if you want to generalise then look at the bigger picture instead and you'll see that France is less "inhumane" than the country which has the worst violence and crime statistics in western Europe.
All this is too easy behind pseudos. My real name is Samantha (Sam) Panarty (note the clever acronym). What's yours?
You've seen a couple of examples of bad behaviour and you use them to judge an entire country. That would be like calling every Briton a knife-killer just because there have been (and there have) several incidents in the past few days.
As for football hooliganism, there's a reason we Brits have the reputation we do, even amongst ourselves. Stade du Rey not withstanding.
There's also a reason why hundreds of thousands of Britons turn their backs on their own country every year (Home Office stats - look them up). And also a reason why young French businessmen and women go to Britain - it's because of the favourable business tax structure, certainly not the "humane" lifestyle.
You generalise based on a few incidents and you're wrong. But if you want to generalise then look at the bigger picture instead and you'll see that France is less "inhumane" than the country which has the worst violence and crime statistics in western Europe.
All this is too easy behind pseudos. My real name is Samantha (Sam) Panarty (note the clever acronym). What's yours?
...
written by SmartyPants , 06 July 2008
written by SmartyPants , 06 July 2008
A couple of fresh facts about inhumanity from the "bubble", Baron:
According to the latest Department of Health statistics, knife violence in Britain is far worse than previous official statistics suggest, with almost 14,000 people taken to hospital for injuries caused by knives and other sharp weapons last year.
18 teenagers have been murdered in London this year, and it's only July.
Oh, I almost forgot... it's the French who are "inhumane", right?
According to the latest Department of Health statistics, knife violence in Britain is far worse than previous official statistics suggest, with almost 14,000 people taken to hospital for injuries caused by knives and other sharp weapons last year.
18 teenagers have been murdered in London this year, and it's only July.
Oh, I almost forgot... it's the French who are "inhumane", right?
...
written by Shortia , 14 July 2008
written by Shortia , 14 July 2008
ok...we're going slightly off topic here...but I found the murder ratios per world capital online"
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita
France at 40
UK at 46
I also found a study conducted on Youth Unemployment and Crime in France which you might like to read:
http://ideas.repec.org/p/iza/izadps/dp2009.html
Maybe you should read this after reading the Daily Mail and you won't have such a rosé outlook on France. Add this to the downright rudeness of everday French citizens and I would have to say that I agree with Mr Baron, the french ARE 'inhumane'.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita
France at 40
UK at 46
I also found a study conducted on Youth Unemployment and Crime in France which you might like to read:
http://ideas.repec.org/p/iza/izadps/dp2009.html
Maybe you should read this after reading the Daily Mail and you won't have such a rosé outlook on France. Add this to the downright rudeness of everday French citizens and I would have to say that I agree with Mr Baron, the french ARE 'inhumane'.
...
written by SmartyPants , 15 July 2008
written by SmartyPants , 15 July 2008
Do me a favour - don't presume I'm a Daily Mail reader when you don't know anything about what I read. That paper is a joke.
We will never agree so this will be my last comment on this subject. The fact is that many thousands of us find that France is a good place to live, even if it's not perfect. You think otherwise so just go away and leave us alone without whining about it. Such moaning gives us Poms a bad name.
You won't be the first or the last to go. It's a personal decision and you won't convince the thousands of us who have had a happy life here for many years that we are worse off than before we came.
By the way you might have found that there are a lot of Brits living on the Riviera but just look to the Dordogne or Britanny or Normandy. British residents are everywhere there and the weather is even worse than England! By some accounts we are more than 400,000 British expats (not to mention many other nationalities) who have freely chosen to live in France. We are so numerous in France that we even have our radio stations, estate agents, magazines, web sites, bookshops, schools, churches, English food stores, insurance agents and banks that deal with us in English. I have the TF1 televison channel on as I write this and there's a report on the thousands of Brits who have moved to the Vendée region of France. They claim that almost 10% of the population there is now British. Why would they settle there if it was as bad a country as you say? Are these people all stupid? Is TF1 making it all up?
It all comes down to personal experience. Thousands of us stay here because we have chosen to in the light of our own personal experiences, not yours. We would all leave immediately if we found it to be as "inhumane" as you and the Baron say it is.
Imagine what the families of the Delagrange girl or those two French students who were murdered in London might think of Britain if they thought like you do. Because of their tragic personal experiences, London must seem like a far worse place than it really is. Yet in spite of experiences far worse than anything you might have endured in France I haven't heard them condemn a whole nationality for it.
Shortia, you and the Baron are are a couple of the dissenters amongst hundreds of thousands who have voted with their feet. A few like you will make the journey in the other direction but masses of us choose to stay because we find it a better place to live than where we came from.
Nowhere is perfect and human nature means that we give more weight to the bad than to the good. There's always a tendency to see every negative experience as if it was typical.
Eastern Europeans immigrate into Britain because it's a better life than Eastern Europe. Some British people want to get out of Britain because their personal experiences show it as a violent and dysfunctional place. But they forget that there are good sides to Britain also and there is a balance to strike before making a choice. All it takes is a couple of bad experiences and people are ready to condemn an entire country. That's what you are doing.
Why do you think you should try to convince others who are perfectly happy here, even if you may have personal reasons not to be?
We could discuss this until the cows come home but the number of people who choose to leave Britain for France, Spain, Canada, Australia and elsewhere is evidence that millions of Britons have chosen to leave because they find other places (including France for some of us) a better place to live than Britain even though most people stay in the country they were born in. We can talk all we want about the reasons but action overrides talk every time.
Many expats I know find that Spanish authorities show institutionalised obstructiveness towards foreigners. Some of them leave because of this but most choose to stay because their overall experience is that Spain is better than where they came from. It's a personal decision based on personal experience and balancing the bad against the good aspects of life there.
I had a friend who went to America on holiday a few months ago and was upset by the belligerence of US immigration officials. Then on his first evening in Washington he was mugged and the police showed little cooperation or even courtesy to this British tourist. He took the first plane home and since denounces the USA but most of us who go there find Americans hospitable and friendly. My friend's experience wasn't unique, but it was not typical either.
You'll never convince the hundreds of thousands of Brits whose personal experiences with France are not like yours. They're here because they want to be, based upon their own experience, not yours. If all those Brits agreed with you they'd leave, and they'd be right.
But look around at the thousands who have voted with their feet just as you will. The ones who stay are the rule and you are the exception. They're not stupid just because they have chosen a different route from you.
We will never agree so this will be my last comment on this subject. The fact is that many thousands of us find that France is a good place to live, even if it's not perfect. You think otherwise so just go away and leave us alone without whining about it. Such moaning gives us Poms a bad name.
You won't be the first or the last to go. It's a personal decision and you won't convince the thousands of us who have had a happy life here for many years that we are worse off than before we came.
By the way you might have found that there are a lot of Brits living on the Riviera but just look to the Dordogne or Britanny or Normandy. British residents are everywhere there and the weather is even worse than England! By some accounts we are more than 400,000 British expats (not to mention many other nationalities) who have freely chosen to live in France. We are so numerous in France that we even have our radio stations, estate agents, magazines, web sites, bookshops, schools, churches, English food stores, insurance agents and banks that deal with us in English. I have the TF1 televison channel on as I write this and there's a report on the thousands of Brits who have moved to the Vendée region of France. They claim that almost 10% of the population there is now British. Why would they settle there if it was as bad a country as you say? Are these people all stupid? Is TF1 making it all up?
It all comes down to personal experience. Thousands of us stay here because we have chosen to in the light of our own personal experiences, not yours. We would all leave immediately if we found it to be as "inhumane" as you and the Baron say it is.
Imagine what the families of the Delagrange girl or those two French students who were murdered in London might think of Britain if they thought like you do. Because of their tragic personal experiences, London must seem like a far worse place than it really is. Yet in spite of experiences far worse than anything you might have endured in France I haven't heard them condemn a whole nationality for it.
Shortia, you and the Baron are are a couple of the dissenters amongst hundreds of thousands who have voted with their feet. A few like you will make the journey in the other direction but masses of us choose to stay because we find it a better place to live than where we came from.
Nowhere is perfect and human nature means that we give more weight to the bad than to the good. There's always a tendency to see every negative experience as if it was typical.
Eastern Europeans immigrate into Britain because it's a better life than Eastern Europe. Some British people want to get out of Britain because their personal experiences show it as a violent and dysfunctional place. But they forget that there are good sides to Britain also and there is a balance to strike before making a choice. All it takes is a couple of bad experiences and people are ready to condemn an entire country. That's what you are doing.
Why do you think you should try to convince others who are perfectly happy here, even if you may have personal reasons not to be?
We could discuss this until the cows come home but the number of people who choose to leave Britain for France, Spain, Canada, Australia and elsewhere is evidence that millions of Britons have chosen to leave because they find other places (including France for some of us) a better place to live than Britain even though most people stay in the country they were born in. We can talk all we want about the reasons but action overrides talk every time.
Many expats I know find that Spanish authorities show institutionalised obstructiveness towards foreigners. Some of them leave because of this but most choose to stay because their overall experience is that Spain is better than where they came from. It's a personal decision based on personal experience and balancing the bad against the good aspects of life there.
I had a friend who went to America on holiday a few months ago and was upset by the belligerence of US immigration officials. Then on his first evening in Washington he was mugged and the police showed little cooperation or even courtesy to this British tourist. He took the first plane home and since denounces the USA but most of us who go there find Americans hospitable and friendly. My friend's experience wasn't unique, but it was not typical either.
You'll never convince the hundreds of thousands of Brits whose personal experiences with France are not like yours. They're here because they want to be, based upon their own experience, not yours. If all those Brits agreed with you they'd leave, and they'd be right.
But look around at the thousands who have voted with their feet just as you will. The ones who stay are the rule and you are the exception. They're not stupid just because they have chosen a different route from you.
...
written by Ghost Girl , 15 July 2008
written by Ghost Girl , 15 July 2008
Totally agree with Smarty Pants.
I've lived in France for 20 years. Sure, now and again I've come across isolated cases of rudeness (you're bound to in any country) but I have never encountered a person or a situation in France which would lead me to categorise the entire nation in one fell swoop as "inhumane" (like, I said unless you're talking about the method of production of certain foods, e.g. frogs' legs and foie gras).
Yes, I've queued at le Prefecture on numerous occasions - I've also moved around in France a lot: changed address, phone number and departement numerous times, bought and sold cars, had kids in France who went thru the French schooling system, had tax queries and appointments with official representatives and done just about everything which would put me in contact with potentially awkward bureaucrats. In all this time and all these situations, I have rarely come across anyone who has been less than courteous and helpful (even back in the days when I didn't speak particularly good French - in fact, in those days, I used to find that a smile and an apologetic "Je suis desole, je ne parle pas bien le francais..." would usually have the local people falling over themselves to help me out).
Sorry, but for me "inhumane" is completely the wrong adjective to use in this context.
Life (in any country) is what we make it. If we move to a foreign country, the onus is on us to learn the language and make an effort to integrate. If we can't be bothered to do this, then we shouldn't blame the locals for our own inadequacies by being derogatory towards them; that ain't cricket.
I've lived in France for 20 years. Sure, now and again I've come across isolated cases of rudeness (you're bound to in any country) but I have never encountered a person or a situation in France which would lead me to categorise the entire nation in one fell swoop as "inhumane" (like, I said unless you're talking about the method of production of certain foods, e.g. frogs' legs and foie gras).
Yes, I've queued at le Prefecture on numerous occasions - I've also moved around in France a lot: changed address, phone number and departement numerous times, bought and sold cars, had kids in France who went thru the French schooling system, had tax queries and appointments with official representatives and done just about everything which would put me in contact with potentially awkward bureaucrats. In all this time and all these situations, I have rarely come across anyone who has been less than courteous and helpful (even back in the days when I didn't speak particularly good French - in fact, in those days, I used to find that a smile and an apologetic "Je suis desole, je ne parle pas bien le francais..." would usually have the local people falling over themselves to help me out).
Sorry, but for me "inhumane" is completely the wrong adjective to use in this context.
Life (in any country) is what we make it. If we move to a foreign country, the onus is on us to learn the language and make an effort to integrate. If we can't be bothered to do this, then we shouldn't blame the locals for our own inadequacies by being derogatory towards them; that ain't cricket.
...
written by Shortia , 16 July 2008
written by Shortia , 16 July 2008
fair enough....but as has been previously mentioned before on this site....why don't you go down to the Prefecture in Nice early in the morning and you can see for yourself the way that France treats foreigners. It is disgusting and absolutely despicable and whats more it breeds absolute contempt against French people in general.
Last week I seen a french kid crash his moped....in any other country, I would walk over and help the poor guy. Here, on this instance, I laughed and walked on.
I've lived in many countries due to my work and never, ever had the problems that I've encountered in this rathole of a country.
France is probably a great place to live if you are in your sixties and have £10 million in the bank. I'm not and I don't so therefore I find it to be somewhat of a living hell.....and you'll never convice people like myself and Baron that its somekind of 'mecca' for Brits.
Last week I seen a french kid crash his moped....in any other country, I would walk over and help the poor guy. Here, on this instance, I laughed and walked on.
I've lived in many countries due to my work and never, ever had the problems that I've encountered in this rathole of a country.
France is probably a great place to live if you are in your sixties and have £10 million in the bank. I'm not and I don't so therefore I find it to be somewhat of a living hell.....and you'll never convice people like myself and Baron that its somekind of 'mecca' for Brits.
...
written by Mike Meade , 16 July 2008
written by Mike Meade , 16 July 2008
It is not my intention to weigh in one way or the other in the continuation of this debate, if continuation there is to be. But I do know a lot about the demographic profile of the English-speakers who live here because it is essential to our business that we know this. At the Reporter we are in constant contact with many professional and social organisations and we have done our own studies and surveys. Others have been done by outside bodies or statistics gatherers like SIRIUS.
The notion that local anglophones are mostly wealthy retirees is a false one. Several surveys, including 2 by the Reporter and 1 by the BBC quite a few years ago, came to more or less identical conclusions. I believe that surveys done by others (Riviera Radio for example) found more or less the same thing.
To be realistic, everything points to the facts being as follows:
1/ The permanent resident English-speaking population in the PACA region is in excess of 100,000. Probably well in excess (many people are so well integrated they're not easy to find and so escape detection by consular, SIRIUS or other means).
2/ The percentage of working age people is only about 2% lower than in the general French population or in the national population of the UK or elsewhere in western Europe. In other words, the majority of people are of working age and indeed do work. About 75% is the European norm give or take a few percentage points and this seems true of Riviera anglophones also.
3/ Most anglophones here are in the income norm or slightly above it. There are of course some millionaires in some selected zones but on the whole local anglophones are not that much better off than the general population is. Some are even poorer and the British Association amongst other charities has found many cases of real poverty, just as there are some in the UK or elsewhere.
4/ In fact there are other elements that indicate that many Britons here may be worse off financially here than they would be in the UK, even if they're not what we would call "poor".
-some came here partly because property values are lower than in the UK and so they can afford to buy here whereas they couldn't in the UK
-some came because they sold their UK property in the boom and which gave them enough to retire at 45 and have sufficient investment income left over to live on (which is one reason there are so many English financial advisors for middle income people here)
- an important consideration is the fact that salaries in France for qualified people are usually lower than in the UK. People are not as well off simply because they get paid less.
I get the impression (from reading between the lines of your debate, which I could be misinterpreting) that Shortia, Ghost Girl, and SmartyPants are all about typical Riviera anglophones from a demographic point of view - working age, middle income, middle class, family people. That's just a guess on my part.
The above are some demographic facts as well as we can establish them. As for the opinionated bits, I'll leave you to continue the debate on your own.
Mike Meade
Editor, Riviera Reporter
The notion that local anglophones are mostly wealthy retirees is a false one. Several surveys, including 2 by the Reporter and 1 by the BBC quite a few years ago, came to more or less identical conclusions. I believe that surveys done by others (Riviera Radio for example) found more or less the same thing.
To be realistic, everything points to the facts being as follows:
1/ The permanent resident English-speaking population in the PACA region is in excess of 100,000. Probably well in excess (many people are so well integrated they're not easy to find and so escape detection by consular, SIRIUS or other means).
2/ The percentage of working age people is only about 2% lower than in the general French population or in the national population of the UK or elsewhere in western Europe. In other words, the majority of people are of working age and indeed do work. About 75% is the European norm give or take a few percentage points and this seems true of Riviera anglophones also.
3/ Most anglophones here are in the income norm or slightly above it. There are of course some millionaires in some selected zones but on the whole local anglophones are not that much better off than the general population is. Some are even poorer and the British Association amongst other charities has found many cases of real poverty, just as there are some in the UK or elsewhere.
4/ In fact there are other elements that indicate that many Britons here may be worse off financially here than they would be in the UK, even if they're not what we would call "poor".
-some came here partly because property values are lower than in the UK and so they can afford to buy here whereas they couldn't in the UK
-some came because they sold their UK property in the boom and which gave them enough to retire at 45 and have sufficient investment income left over to live on (which is one reason there are so many English financial advisors for middle income people here)
- an important consideration is the fact that salaries in France for qualified people are usually lower than in the UK. People are not as well off simply because they get paid less.
I get the impression (from reading between the lines of your debate, which I could be misinterpreting) that Shortia, Ghost Girl, and SmartyPants are all about typical Riviera anglophones from a demographic point of view - working age, middle income, middle class, family people. That's just a guess on my part.
The above are some demographic facts as well as we can establish them. As for the opinionated bits, I'll leave you to continue the debate on your own.
Mike Meade
Editor, Riviera Reporter
...
written by Ghost Girl , 16 July 2008
written by Ghost Girl , 16 July 2008
"...Working age, middle income, middle class, family people..." Yep, that sounds about right for me.
I'm not in my 60s, Shortia - far from it. I left a good job behind in the UK and came here when I was quite young, with minimal French, one suitcase and a couple of hundred quid in my pocket. And here I still am; living proof that not all the expats in France are retired or rich...and guess what? I like it here - I wouldn't have stayed, otherwise!
I'm not in my 60s, Shortia - far from it. I left a good job behind in the UK and came here when I was quite young, with minimal French, one suitcase and a couple of hundred quid in my pocket. And here I still am; living proof that not all the expats in France are retired or rich...and guess what? I like it here - I wouldn't have stayed, otherwise!
...
written by Guido , 16 July 2008
written by Guido , 16 July 2008
I am Italian. We see again yesterday news that Italian police are not very nice to English people at the G8 meet in Genova. Italian police are very very violent there. They beat up injured people very strongly. But I am not Italian like those police. I hope that English people not hate all Italian people like you hate French people. I like French people. I do not talk against them if some are bad becaus others are good. Like Italian people are good and some ar bad.
Guido
Guido
...
written by Shortia , 16 July 2008
written by Shortia , 16 July 2008
"...Working age, middle income, middle class, family people..."....I think you got the working age part correct ;-)
No, honestly I appreciate that some people can love this area...it IS beautiful. I've come as a foreign contractor with a non-EU wife and for us...our whole experience has been quite sour to tell the truth. If you are in the system, I imagine it is quite a good life...but again, we've always felt like we're on the outside, looking in to a very exclusive party. Even at the place where I work they charge me extra for being a contractor....this type of thing has just made me very anti-French...and not for that alone, theres been like a million and one instances for the last 15 months where I finally just think its a pretty horrible nation.
Again...I never had this type of experience in any other country. C'est la vie.....
P.S I still say that Great Britain is the greatest nation on this planet....all you ex-pats, you should NEVER forget your roots.
No, honestly I appreciate that some people can love this area...it IS beautiful. I've come as a foreign contractor with a non-EU wife and for us...our whole experience has been quite sour to tell the truth. If you are in the system, I imagine it is quite a good life...but again, we've always felt like we're on the outside, looking in to a very exclusive party. Even at the place where I work they charge me extra for being a contractor....this type of thing has just made me very anti-French...and not for that alone, theres been like a million and one instances for the last 15 months where I finally just think its a pretty horrible nation.
Again...I never had this type of experience in any other country. C'est la vie.....
P.S I still say that Great Britain is the greatest nation on this planet....all you ex-pats, you should NEVER forget your roots.
...
written by Walgren , 17 July 2008
written by Walgren , 17 July 2008
You write:
"Last week I seen a french kid crash his moped....in any other country, I would walk over and help the poor guy. Here, on this instance, I laughed and walked on."
Think about this. In many countries (including England), if you had said:
"Last week I seen a black kid crash his moped....if he was any other colour, I would walk over and help the poor guy. Here, on this instance, I laughed and walked on."
or this:
"Last week I seen a jewish kid crash his moped....if he was any other religion, I would walk over and help the poor guy. Here, on this instance, I laughed and walked on."
You would be liable to arrest and trial for racism. For racist is what you are when you condemn an entire people for the acts of only some of them.
"Last week I seen a french kid crash his moped....in any other country, I would walk over and help the poor guy. Here, on this instance, I laughed and walked on."
Think about this. In many countries (including England), if you had said:
"Last week I seen a black kid crash his moped....if he was any other colour, I would walk over and help the poor guy. Here, on this instance, I laughed and walked on."
or this:
"Last week I seen a jewish kid crash his moped....if he was any other religion, I would walk over and help the poor guy. Here, on this instance, I laughed and walked on."
You would be liable to arrest and trial for racism. For racist is what you are when you condemn an entire people for the acts of only some of them.
...
written by Jack , 17 July 2008
written by Jack , 17 July 2008
Yes Walgren.....but if your Auntie had a penis she would be your Uncle.
You're talking complete twaddle I'm afraid, I think Shortia is more making a point that he's not really interested in helping French people probably due to the lack of help on the whole that he's received.....and he probably more xenophobic than racist.
You should think about what you're saying before you type.
Incidently Shortia, was the kid that crashed the moped black or jewish?
You're talking complete twaddle I'm afraid, I think Shortia is more making a point that he's not really interested in helping French people probably due to the lack of help on the whole that he's received.....and he probably more xenophobic than racist.
You should think about what you're saying before you type.
Incidently Shortia, was the kid that crashed the moped black or jewish?
...
written by Walgren , 17 July 2008
written by Walgren , 17 July 2008
There are better ways to "make a point". And that applies to you as well, "Jack".
...
written by Ghost Girl , 17 July 2008
written by Ghost Girl , 17 July 2008
Hello, Guido - nice to meet you!
I agree with you: there is good and bad in every country and just because one or two people on this forum have said negative things about the French, please don't think that all English-speaking expats feel the same way.
I've lived in several different regions of France and would admit that the local people were friendlier and more approachable in some places than others. Realistically, one cannot base one's opinion of an entire nation on the behaviour of the people encountered in a single region. That would be like saying we dislike the British because we once spent a few months living in Slough and didn't like the people we met there. Or that we hate Americans because we once lived in New York and found the people loud and pushy. No offence to people from Slough and New York, I'm just using these examples to illustrate how wrong it is to categorise an entire nation, based on the people encountered in one region.
The Cote d'Azur is a hotchpotch of many different nationalities, origins and influences. It does not give a typical example of France or the French and the person who serves us in a boulangerie on the French Riviera is just as likely to be of Portugese, Italian or North African origin as they are French. Ditto, the minor officials who administrate the region.
So perhaps le Baron and Shortia would be more correct in saying that they find the people on the Cote d'Azur "inhumane", although I still think that adjective is unnecessarily harsh. I might, however, be inclined to use that adjective to describe someone who did not come to the aid of an injured person - now THAT, to my mind, could have been described as "inhumane".
I agree with you: there is good and bad in every country and just because one or two people on this forum have said negative things about the French, please don't think that all English-speaking expats feel the same way.
I've lived in several different regions of France and would admit that the local people were friendlier and more approachable in some places than others. Realistically, one cannot base one's opinion of an entire nation on the behaviour of the people encountered in a single region. That would be like saying we dislike the British because we once spent a few months living in Slough and didn't like the people we met there. Or that we hate Americans because we once lived in New York and found the people loud and pushy. No offence to people from Slough and New York, I'm just using these examples to illustrate how wrong it is to categorise an entire nation, based on the people encountered in one region.
The Cote d'Azur is a hotchpotch of many different nationalities, origins and influences. It does not give a typical example of France or the French and the person who serves us in a boulangerie on the French Riviera is just as likely to be of Portugese, Italian or North African origin as they are French. Ditto, the minor officials who administrate the region.
So perhaps le Baron and Shortia would be more correct in saying that they find the people on the Cote d'Azur "inhumane", although I still think that adjective is unnecessarily harsh. I might, however, be inclined to use that adjective to describe someone who did not come to the aid of an injured person - now THAT, to my mind, could have been described as "inhumane".
...
written by Shortia , 17 July 2008
written by Shortia , 17 July 2008
haha...I guess Ghost Girl, The Cote d'Azur toughens you up.
People in this part of the world I find to be crazy. I had an incident last week in a newsagent, the women was freaking out at me for paying for a newspaper at 3.75? with a 20? note. She claimed I was purposely trying to just get her change.
I purposely just wanted to read a newspaper on my way to work!!...as a result I took my money back off her and went to another newsagent, silly people.
Or the time an estate agent(Century 21, Rude de la Buffa, Nice) ripped up my work contract for not being able to give her 4 months rent in cash (that was my second day in Nice...nice beginning)
The streets in Nice are always full of dog crap too, what sort of people just let their dogs crap all over the city? ...or the time I seen a french man having a crap himself in the fountain at Jardin Albert.
'inhumane'.
People in this part of the world I find to be crazy. I had an incident last week in a newsagent, the women was freaking out at me for paying for a newspaper at 3.75? with a 20? note. She claimed I was purposely trying to just get her change.
I purposely just wanted to read a newspaper on my way to work!!...as a result I took my money back off her and went to another newsagent, silly people.
Or the time an estate agent(Century 21, Rude de la Buffa, Nice) ripped up my work contract for not being able to give her 4 months rent in cash (that was my second day in Nice...nice beginning)
The streets in Nice are always full of dog crap too, what sort of people just let their dogs crap all over the city? ...or the time I seen a french man having a crap himself in the fountain at Jardin Albert.
'inhumane'.
...
written by Shortia , 17 July 2008
written by Shortia , 17 July 2008
oh...and Jack....I couldn't see if he was black or not, he had a helmet on. He had trousers on too, so I couldn't really see if he was jewish or not.
Maybe I am racist, I'll need to go home and divorce my wife now.
Maybe I am racist, I'll need to go home and divorce my wife now.
...
written by Walgren , 17 July 2008
written by Walgren , 17 July 2008
Yeah, well I've had some worse experiences in all sorts of places than I've ever had in France. Even been mugged in London but never in France. Try Naples if you want to see vandalism, street crime and dirty streets. But I can tell Guido that it hasn't put me off Italians or Italy. Ciao!
Keep crying "inhumane" Shortia. You're convincing no one but yourself. People have eyes and ears and don't need a bigot to form their opinions for them.
Keep crying "inhumane" Shortia. You're convincing no one but yourself. People have eyes and ears and don't need a bigot to form their opinions for them.
...
written by Mike Meade , 17 July 2008
written by Mike Meade , 17 July 2008
This is a place to debate ideas in a civilised manner, not to exchange insults. Please keep your language and tone within more reasonable limits.
If I see any more insulting or nasty contributions I'll zap them without a word of explanation or excuse. That will leave the field open only to those who express themselves in a more civilised manner.
It applies to both side of the question and I am the sole judge.
Admin (aka God)
If I see any more insulting or nasty contributions I'll zap them without a word of explanation or excuse. That will leave the field open only to those who express themselves in a more civilised manner.
It applies to both side of the question and I am the sole judge.
Admin (aka God)
...
written by megabyte , 17 July 2008
written by megabyte , 17 July 2008
I find it difficult to believe Shortia's or anyone else's encounters with every single French person on the Riviera have ALL been bad. Surely you've met some nice kind, considerate or thoughtful French people here? Are you really saying that the majority of French people you've come across are "inhumane"? If so, then I can only imagine you've been incredibly and most rarely unlucky.
My dictionary defines "inhumane" as "lacking compassion and causing excessive suffering". I get moments when I moan about the rude, pompous or arrogant people in shops or other services here, but I'd hardly refer to them as "inhumane" let alone causing me excessive suffering. No country is 100% perfect in all respects and one takes the good with the bad. By contrast, I've come across many French people who are nice, pleasant, helpful people. I guess it depends on where one's priorities lie...
As for compassion and helpfulness, my elderly (English) aunt recently fell in the road near to her home. She couldn't get up on her own and there was no-one about. A young scruffy French man on a bike drove by, stopped, helped her up and then helped take her home. Hardly "inhumane"! Same as GhostGirl, to me the person who walks by and, worse, laughs about it could be considered to be the "inhumane" person. Would any caring person walk by an injured dog and laugh about it? I don't see what's amusing about being injured.
Nor do I think it's right to generalise and tar the majority when it's only a minority that might have a gruff attitude.
My dictionary defines "inhumane" as "lacking compassion and causing excessive suffering". I get moments when I moan about the rude, pompous or arrogant people in shops or other services here, but I'd hardly refer to them as "inhumane" let alone causing me excessive suffering. No country is 100% perfect in all respects and one takes the good with the bad. By contrast, I've come across many French people who are nice, pleasant, helpful people. I guess it depends on where one's priorities lie...
As for compassion and helpfulness, my elderly (English) aunt recently fell in the road near to her home. She couldn't get up on her own and there was no-one about. A young scruffy French man on a bike drove by, stopped, helped her up and then helped take her home. Hardly "inhumane"! Same as GhostGirl, to me the person who walks by and, worse, laughs about it could be considered to be the "inhumane" person. Would any caring person walk by an injured dog and laugh about it? I don't see what's amusing about being injured.
Nor do I think it's right to generalise and tar the majority when it's only a minority that might have a gruff attitude.
...
written by Shortia , 17 July 2008
written by Shortia , 17 July 2008
megabyte....I'm 100% serious. Perhaps I have been unlucky in this regard.
A couple of weeks ago, the guy in Nicolas wine shop in Nice thanked me for his custom when I bought some wine. My wife and I were actually stunned that a shopkeeper was so courteous. We go and buy from him when we need some reassurance of humanity in this region.
A couple of weeks ago, the guy in Nicolas wine shop in Nice thanked me for his custom when I bought some wine. My wife and I were actually stunned that a shopkeeper was so courteous. We go and buy from him when we need some reassurance of humanity in this region.
...
written by Mike P , 21 July 2008
written by Mike P , 21 July 2008
(Part 1)
Where do I come in on this one, which I've followed for a while now?
I suppose on balance I'm a lot closer to Shortia's views than many of the others. I don't mince my words but I do try to be objective.
First of all I think 'inhumane' is not the appropriate word to use in the context, unless, as someone else said, we are talking about the way the French abuse small animals which they then eat. That is an obscenity and one which should be stopped. Let us not forget though that in Spain bulls are still ritually tortured and killed in front of bloodthirsty spectators, so France does not have sole rights on animal cruelty.
To call a nation inhumane when it has one of the best (and admittedly most costly) social security systems in the world is also not defensible.
Some of the most obnoxious, despicable, two-faced lowlife lying scum I have ever met in my life have been French. And some have been other nationalities, one who comes to mind is Argentinian, so whilst it is unfair to generalise, it is nonetheless true that stereotypes are based on, and usually conform to, reality.
Some of the finest and most honourable, decent, and trustworthy people I have met in my entire life have been French too, from the Cote D'Azur. And one was Argentinian ....!
The Cote D'Azur is a special case, and its people are viewed as such by the French from other areas. How often have I heard : "Ils sont specials, les gens de la bas". I remember a Marseille taxi driver who took me to a Consulate, when I told him where I lived, telling me : "Il n'y a que des vieux cons, des putes, et des voleurs la bas." He then invited me for lunch and took me back to the Consulate afterwards to pick up my visa and back to the railway station - taxi meter off!
When I first came here I thought the locals were xenophobic, it took me a while to realise that many of them rip off and despise each other as much as they despise foreigners. There seems to be a higher proportion of evil people in this area than in most other places, but I guess that's a result of the perceived wealth of many of us foreigners, and there's also an element of jealousy.
Where do I come in on this one, which I've followed for a while now?
I suppose on balance I'm a lot closer to Shortia's views than many of the others. I don't mince my words but I do try to be objective.
First of all I think 'inhumane' is not the appropriate word to use in the context, unless, as someone else said, we are talking about the way the French abuse small animals which they then eat. That is an obscenity and one which should be stopped. Let us not forget though that in Spain bulls are still ritually tortured and killed in front of bloodthirsty spectators, so France does not have sole rights on animal cruelty.
To call a nation inhumane when it has one of the best (and admittedly most costly) social security systems in the world is also not defensible.
Some of the most obnoxious, despicable, two-faced lowlife lying scum I have ever met in my life have been French. And some have been other nationalities, one who comes to mind is Argentinian, so whilst it is unfair to generalise, it is nonetheless true that stereotypes are based on, and usually conform to, reality.
Some of the finest and most honourable, decent, and trustworthy people I have met in my entire life have been French too, from the Cote D'Azur. And one was Argentinian ....!
The Cote D'Azur is a special case, and its people are viewed as such by the French from other areas. How often have I heard : "Ils sont specials, les gens de la bas". I remember a Marseille taxi driver who took me to a Consulate, when I told him where I lived, telling me : "Il n'y a que des vieux cons, des putes, et des voleurs la bas." He then invited me for lunch and took me back to the Consulate afterwards to pick up my visa and back to the railway station - taxi meter off!
When I first came here I thought the locals were xenophobic, it took me a while to realise that many of them rip off and despise each other as much as they despise foreigners. There seems to be a higher proportion of evil people in this area than in most other places, but I guess that's a result of the perceived wealth of many of us foreigners, and there's also an element of jealousy.
...
written by Mike P , 21 July 2008
written by Mike P , 21 July 2008
(Part 2)
Behind their smiles, handshakes, and 'bise' ('air kiss'), these are some of the coldest, meanest, falsest, and most materialistic and mercenary people I have had the misfortune to encounter in 30 years living in 5 countries on two continents, and travelling extensively in others. Other nations have a reputation, often undeserved, for being cold or 'stand-offish', but there you know what to expect. What you see is what you get. Here, behind the superficial smile and the limp dead-fish automatic reflex action handshake, or the ubiqitious and meaningless 'bise', lurks an ice-cold heart and a calculating mind. The smiles vanish like the morning dew in the sun once the bill is presented.
The locals complain about people who holiday here bringing everything with them, but the reality is that they have become the victims of their own rapacious greed. Not only are prices pitched higher in this part of France (and France has one of the highest direct and indirect taxation levels in Europe) than elsewhere, but they are raised in the summer for the unsuspecting tourist. Mysterious unpublished supplements appear. I have heard of surcharges added to a cafe bill 'because you are sitting outside'. The next day, the same amount was added 'because you are sitting inside'.
Dishonesty is rife amongst landlords - it is rare for anybody to have their deposit returned on rented accommodation. Fictitious bills for major repairs or cleaning are produced by grasping landlords to justify the retention of deposits. The estate agents are always on the side of the exploiter - indeed are themselves exploiters. The one I rented my house through charged a monthly 'frais d'envoi' to send the rental statement - a trifling amount but typical of the all-pervading greed.
Then there's the driving. It has admittedly improved since I've been here, or have I perhaps just become inured to it? 'Au volant', the local arrogance and stupidity is seen at its worst. Total disregard for consideration and common sense seems to be the only rule of the road. Blatantly unroadworthy vehicles are driven with reckless abandon, without lights at night, without indicators, and without the most important attribute of all, courtesy. There must be some demon in the local drivers which forces them to sit as if magnetically attached to your rear bumper for miles on a straight clear stretch of road, waiting for a twisting stretch, a blind bend, or oncoming traffic (or ideally a combination of all these), until they overtake. It's usually a white Renault Clio with a testosterone fuelled youth or an anorexic peroxide blonde with a cigarette in her puckered mouth and a cellphone clamped to her ear.
Whilst I will undoubtedly be accused of misogyny in saying this, by far the very worst people I've met in France have been women, and even an English female friend of mine, who owns a flat here and is as much of a Francophile as I am not, agrees with this after several brushes with the locals.
Now if anyone has bothered to read this through, they'll be reaching for their keyboards and about to type out one of the two famous phrases : "If you don't like it here why don't you go home then?", or : "Why are you still here?"
I am not obliged to answer those questions but very briefly I will. My home country is no longer a good option due to changes that have taken place there, and living in the UK with the petty rules and regulations and the growing crime rate, and seeing the country ruined by uncontrolled immigration, is not really for me. Life is about alternatives and before getting rid of something, one has to have something of value to replace it (an old Kikuyu proverb). For the time being, and specially now that I no longer have to go out and do battle on a daily basis with the locals on the roads and in the workplace here, it's not so bad. I've paid a lot of money into the system here over the years, I think that gives me the right to criticise. I can be, and am, selective about whom I mix with and where I go, and as I sit and watch the sun on the Esterel mountains, it's not all bad here. It certainly beats seeing the rain pissing down onto a grey car park in Crawley or Swindon, not that I would be doing that even if I lived in the UK, but I do count myself infinitely more fortunate than so many whose lives are bounded by traffic jams, mortgage increases, and the latest televised trash.
Behind their smiles, handshakes, and 'bise' ('air kiss'), these are some of the coldest, meanest, falsest, and most materialistic and mercenary people I have had the misfortune to encounter in 30 years living in 5 countries on two continents, and travelling extensively in others. Other nations have a reputation, often undeserved, for being cold or 'stand-offish', but there you know what to expect. What you see is what you get. Here, behind the superficial smile and the limp dead-fish automatic reflex action handshake, or the ubiqitious and meaningless 'bise', lurks an ice-cold heart and a calculating mind. The smiles vanish like the morning dew in the sun once the bill is presented.
The locals complain about people who holiday here bringing everything with them, but the reality is that they have become the victims of their own rapacious greed. Not only are prices pitched higher in this part of France (and France has one of the highest direct and indirect taxation levels in Europe) than elsewhere, but they are raised in the summer for the unsuspecting tourist. Mysterious unpublished supplements appear. I have heard of surcharges added to a cafe bill 'because you are sitting outside'. The next day, the same amount was added 'because you are sitting inside'.
Dishonesty is rife amongst landlords - it is rare for anybody to have their deposit returned on rented accommodation. Fictitious bills for major repairs or cleaning are produced by grasping landlords to justify the retention of deposits. The estate agents are always on the side of the exploiter - indeed are themselves exploiters. The one I rented my house through charged a monthly 'frais d'envoi' to send the rental statement - a trifling amount but typical of the all-pervading greed.
Then there's the driving. It has admittedly improved since I've been here, or have I perhaps just become inured to it? 'Au volant', the local arrogance and stupidity is seen at its worst. Total disregard for consideration and common sense seems to be the only rule of the road. Blatantly unroadworthy vehicles are driven with reckless abandon, without lights at night, without indicators, and without the most important attribute of all, courtesy. There must be some demon in the local drivers which forces them to sit as if magnetically attached to your rear bumper for miles on a straight clear stretch of road, waiting for a twisting stretch, a blind bend, or oncoming traffic (or ideally a combination of all these), until they overtake. It's usually a white Renault Clio with a testosterone fuelled youth or an anorexic peroxide blonde with a cigarette in her puckered mouth and a cellphone clamped to her ear.
Whilst I will undoubtedly be accused of misogyny in saying this, by far the very worst people I've met in France have been women, and even an English female friend of mine, who owns a flat here and is as much of a Francophile as I am not, agrees with this after several brushes with the locals.
Now if anyone has bothered to read this through, they'll be reaching for their keyboards and about to type out one of the two famous phrases : "If you don't like it here why don't you go home then?", or : "Why are you still here?"
I am not obliged to answer those questions but very briefly I will. My home country is no longer a good option due to changes that have taken place there, and living in the UK with the petty rules and regulations and the growing crime rate, and seeing the country ruined by uncontrolled immigration, is not really for me. Life is about alternatives and before getting rid of something, one has to have something of value to replace it (an old Kikuyu proverb). For the time being, and specially now that I no longer have to go out and do battle on a daily basis with the locals on the roads and in the workplace here, it's not so bad. I've paid a lot of money into the system here over the years, I think that gives me the right to criticise. I can be, and am, selective about whom I mix with and where I go, and as I sit and watch the sun on the Esterel mountains, it's not all bad here. It certainly beats seeing the rain pissing down onto a grey car park in Crawley or Swindon, not that I would be doing that even if I lived in the UK, but I do count myself infinitely more fortunate than so many whose lives are bounded by traffic jams, mortgage increases, and the latest televised trash.
...
written by Mike Meade , 21 July 2008
written by Mike Meade , 21 July 2008
I wasn't at all planning to weigh in again on this subject but just this once I will. (Only this once -- I won't be back on this.)
MikeP and Ghost Girl have both hit the nail squarely on the head = The Riviera is not really like the rest of France. All you have to do is drive a few miles back into the Alps and it's a whole different story.
That is why the discussion should not be about the French, but about a generally unsatisfactory attitude -- especially towards visitors -- here on the Côte d'Azur.
By the way I've found some pretty questionable attitudes in other parts of the world where tourists go en masse (but there are exceptions). Which is no excuse for some of the things that go on here.
I have experienced some of the worst behaviour imaginable in France... and in England... and in Italy... and in Greece. I've also experienced some of the kindest and most altruistic behaviour imaginable in France... and in England... and in Italy... and in Greece.
The problem with these sorts of subjects is that it inevitably involves cherry-picking and gut reactions based upon good or bad personal experience. Human nature is such that the bad always carries more weight.
Those of us who need resident expats in order to stay in business know that there are an awful lot of them who remain here by choice and who do have other acceptable options. They are usually educated travellers and often do travel back to their home countries -- UK, Australia, Canada -- so they know what the other options are all about. Yet they choose to stay here and in considerable numbers.
Can these tens of thousands of people all be "wrong"? The fact is that they've made comparisons and an informed personal choice. Like I said in the voting subject -- it's a question of the lesser evil... and of personal disposition.
MikeM
MikeP and Ghost Girl have both hit the nail squarely on the head = The Riviera is not really like the rest of France. All you have to do is drive a few miles back into the Alps and it's a whole different story.
That is why the discussion should not be about the French, but about a generally unsatisfactory attitude -- especially towards visitors -- here on the Côte d'Azur.
By the way I've found some pretty questionable attitudes in other parts of the world where tourists go en masse (but there are exceptions). Which is no excuse for some of the things that go on here.
I have experienced some of the worst behaviour imaginable in France... and in England... and in Italy... and in Greece. I've also experienced some of the kindest and most altruistic behaviour imaginable in France... and in England... and in Italy... and in Greece.
The problem with these sorts of subjects is that it inevitably involves cherry-picking and gut reactions based upon good or bad personal experience. Human nature is such that the bad always carries more weight.
Those of us who need resident expats in order to stay in business know that there are an awful lot of them who remain here by choice and who do have other acceptable options. They are usually educated travellers and often do travel back to their home countries -- UK, Australia, Canada -- so they know what the other options are all about. Yet they choose to stay here and in considerable numbers.
Can these tens of thousands of people all be "wrong"? The fact is that they've made comparisons and an informed personal choice. Like I said in the voting subject -- it's a question of the lesser evil... and of personal disposition.
MikeM
...
written by Twinkle Toes , 21 July 2008
written by Twinkle Toes , 21 July 2008
I came to live in France some years ago. I was one of those who did "go home" and moved back to England after a short while as I couldn't stomach the attitude of the French in general which I found to be condescending and antagonsitic in services dealing with the public. As for individuals, at the time I was single and was told that I'd never be invited to dinner or other parties as I'd be seen as a threat to married couples. I may well have been unlucky with my then neighbours, but I also found the French here to be boring and without a sense of humour. I can't even say I came across any Brits here at the time that I particularly liked. I felt isolated in so many ways, mainly due to what I perceived as being the French character.
I nevertheless return to France several times a year as I kept my villa here and as I still enjoy many aspects of the area. In the meantime, I tend to now keep very much more to myself and my husband when here, and I've learnt to try to ignore the worse sides of things and enjoy the better ones.
Now that I come to think of it, Mike P's right, in my experience it's the women who are worse and it's not a case of misogyny on my part as I'm a woman myself. It also seems that the nearer to the coast one gets, the worse it is. Whether it's in shops, behind a desk or even nurses in hospitals, the women seem more gruff and contemptuous. I've made some great friends with French men, one of whom regrettably has an unbearable French wife. The others seem to be single or divorced.... I too have heard that the French from the rest of France claim that the Cote d'Azur isn't really France.
As for the driving, a big resounding "yes, I agree"! Tail-gating, impatience, excessive speeding, endless weaving on motorways, cutting corners and so on. Indicators seem to a non-existent tool to many French drivers. I too have found that it's improved a bit recently, perhaps due to the tighter controls on drivers these days?
For me, I consider I now have the best of both worlds, having my base in England but returning here periodically. I appreciate though that not everybody can, or can afford to, do this for a variety of reasons.
I nevertheless return to France several times a year as I kept my villa here and as I still enjoy many aspects of the area. In the meantime, I tend to now keep very much more to myself and my husband when here, and I've learnt to try to ignore the worse sides of things and enjoy the better ones.
Now that I come to think of it, Mike P's right, in my experience it's the women who are worse and it's not a case of misogyny on my part as I'm a woman myself. It also seems that the nearer to the coast one gets, the worse it is. Whether it's in shops, behind a desk or even nurses in hospitals, the women seem more gruff and contemptuous. I've made some great friends with French men, one of whom regrettably has an unbearable French wife. The others seem to be single or divorced.... I too have heard that the French from the rest of France claim that the Cote d'Azur isn't really France.
As for the driving, a big resounding "yes, I agree"! Tail-gating, impatience, excessive speeding, endless weaving on motorways, cutting corners and so on. Indicators seem to a non-existent tool to many French drivers. I too have found that it's improved a bit recently, perhaps due to the tighter controls on drivers these days?
For me, I consider I now have the best of both worlds, having my base in England but returning here periodically. I appreciate though that not everybody can, or can afford to, do this for a variety of reasons.
...
written by Shortia , 22 July 2008
written by Shortia , 22 July 2008
I guess I feel reassured that some people here can see my view here.
I've been told by lots of my french colleagues that the Cote d'Azur isn't really France, many from Paris, Nantes, Rennes etc etc telling me that the people here are actually vile. So, I'm drawing the conclusion that it IS this region thats the problem.
I find it interesting what Mike P says about landlords. I'm in a position where I'm leaving at the end of October to go live in South America for a while. I was considering to withold my last 2 months rent given the problems that we had at our last place and also for the fact that we plan to leave France pretty much the next day after we hand in the keys.
I know, that by law, the landlord has 2 months to return the rent....thats not an option for me....I'll be 10,000 miles away, relying on a french(cote d'azur) landlord returning 2000? to me. I know for a fact that the apartment is in exactly the same condition as when I moved in....actually, we improved its condition, but thats irrelevant when it comes to these people handing over money that they've probably already spent.
What would you guys do in this situation? withhold the rent...or trust the landlord to return the money on the day of the Etat d'Leui (sp?)
I've been told by lots of my french colleagues that the Cote d'Azur isn't really France, many from Paris, Nantes, Rennes etc etc telling me that the people here are actually vile. So, I'm drawing the conclusion that it IS this region thats the problem.
I find it interesting what Mike P says about landlords. I'm in a position where I'm leaving at the end of October to go live in South America for a while. I was considering to withold my last 2 months rent given the problems that we had at our last place and also for the fact that we plan to leave France pretty much the next day after we hand in the keys.
I know, that by law, the landlord has 2 months to return the rent....thats not an option for me....I'll be 10,000 miles away, relying on a french(cote d'azur) landlord returning 2000? to me. I know for a fact that the apartment is in exactly the same condition as when I moved in....actually, we improved its condition, but thats irrelevant when it comes to these people handing over money that they've probably already spent.
What would you guys do in this situation? withhold the rent...or trust the landlord to return the money on the day of the Etat d'Leui (sp?)
...
written by Mike P , 22 July 2008
written by Mike P , 22 July 2008
There are honest landlords. Whether or not yours falls into that category only time will tell and it may then be too late, but the likelihood is low. I once rented from an honest landlord but the estate agents were crooks and tried to rip both of us off, they went ballistic when I told them I'd already contacted him direct and sorted everything out, because their little scam was outed. I'll never forget how this bleached blonde 60 year anorexic old tart in a miniskirt stood in the estate agency in Valbonne screeeching at me with her hands on her hips like a fishwife.
Apparently many people withold the last two months rent to offset the deposit, which is technically illegal. Has your owner actually promised to return your deposit on the day of the etat de lieu? It does happen but it is most unusual, they usually keep their greedy claws on your money until the last possible moment. And then if he's made a promise and dcoesnt honour it, what is your mechanism for following up?
I would suggest that you appoint someone to act on your behalf to ensure the return of your deposit, preferably a lawyer or someone well versed in the ways of these evil people.
Apparently many people withold the last two months rent to offset the deposit, which is technically illegal. Has your owner actually promised to return your deposit on the day of the etat de lieu? It does happen but it is most unusual, they usually keep their greedy claws on your money until the last possible moment. And then if he's made a promise and dcoesnt honour it, what is your mechanism for following up?
I would suggest that you appoint someone to act on your behalf to ensure the return of your deposit, preferably a lawyer or someone well versed in the ways of these evil people.
...
written by Shortia , 22 July 2008
written by Shortia , 22 July 2008
At the moment, we havent communicated to the Agency that we are leaving...due to the fact they are currently on vacation. Our relationship with the agency is currently terrible though...we had a fall out over who should pick up the bill for a fumigation for cockroaches....and also huge fall out when our hot water was off for a week.
If they don't return our deposit on the day we leave....I don't really have much of a follow up, I'll be on the other side of the world and it wouldn't be worth flying over to confront them. I guess I can only speak to them when they return from their vacation and attempt to negotiate a plan that works for everybody. Given our current relationship though, I could see it turning nasty.
This 'bleached blonde 60 year anorexic old tart in a miniskirt' you talk of....I wonder if this is the very same one that tore up my work contract in a fit of rage because I couldn't give her 4000? in cash when we first went to rent a place in Nice?
'
If they don't return our deposit on the day we leave....I don't really have much of a follow up, I'll be on the other side of the world and it wouldn't be worth flying over to confront them. I guess I can only speak to them when they return from their vacation and attempt to negotiate a plan that works for everybody. Given our current relationship though, I could see it turning nasty.
This 'bleached blonde 60 year anorexic old tart in a miniskirt' you talk of....I wonder if this is the very same one that tore up my work contract in a fit of rage because I couldn't give her 4000? in cash when we first went to rent a place in Nice?
'
...
written by Walgren , 22 July 2008
written by Walgren , 22 July 2008
On the whole I have no problem with the French, and I mix with them far more than with fellow ex-pats. But life isn't without some problems so there is one from time to time, here like everywhere else.
But this reference to French women is interesting. I'd never thought about it before, but the few problems I have had were always with women. I can't think of a single one with a man.
So it's not France that's the issue, it's this part of France.
And it's not French people the problem, it's French women.
The solution seems simple. If you choose to stay in France, choose a different part of it and bring your own woman!
But this reference to French women is interesting. I'd never thought about it before, but the few problems I have had were always with women. I can't think of a single one with a man.
So it's not France that's the issue, it's this part of France.
And it's not French people the problem, it's French women.
The solution seems simple. If you choose to stay in France, choose a different part of it and bring your own woman!
...
written by Mike P , 22 July 2008
written by Mike P , 22 July 2008
"This 'bleached blonde 60 year anorexic old tart in a miniskirt' you talk of....I wonder if this is the very same one that tore up my work contract in a fit of rage"
Mine would be about 75 by now, but it might her sister! Or they are all cast in the same mould.
On the topic of women - and I really am not misogynistic - did you know that there is a local saying ....
If a viper bites a man, the man dies. If a viper bites a woman, the snake dies.
Mine would be about 75 by now, but it might her sister! Or they are all cast in the same mould.
On the topic of women - and I really am not misogynistic - did you know that there is a local saying ....
If a viper bites a man, the man dies. If a viper bites a woman, the snake dies.
...
written by Hollander , 30 July 2008
written by Hollander , 30 July 2008
A Reuter's IHT report in 2007 said: "The French dislike themselves even more than the Americans dislike them, according to an opinion poll published on Friday. The survey of six nations, carried out for the International Herald Tribune daily and France 24 TV station, said 44 percent of French people thought badly of themselves against 38 percent of U.S. respondents who had a negative view of the French....."
...
written by Bbethany7 , 09 August 2008
written by Bbethany7 , 09 August 2008
I agree about the naivete of Americans. When you consider that 80%
don't own a passport, and thus travel only to nearby places such as
Mexico, the Caribbean, and Canada, where there is free access (This will
soon change, thanks to FEMA and the Patriot Act). Many of the folks who do travel take cocooned sea cruises that ensure they'll not be contaminated by alien cuisine or contact with unsavory foreigners.
Actually, they're more xenophobic than naive. It's a symptom of
the U.S. headlong plunge a from pinnacle of power it once enjoyed
to a position of grovelling servitude to the rising tide of Sovereign
Wealth States who now, with their obscene riches, call the shots..BB
don't own a passport, and thus travel only to nearby places such as
Mexico, the Caribbean, and Canada, where there is free access (This will
soon change, thanks to FEMA and the Patriot Act). Many of the folks who do travel take cocooned sea cruises that ensure they'll not be contaminated by alien cuisine or contact with unsavory foreigners.
Actually, they're more xenophobic than naive. It's a symptom of
the U.S. headlong plunge a from pinnacle of power it once enjoyed
to a position of grovelling servitude to the rising tide of Sovereign
Wealth States who now, with their obscene riches, call the shots..BB
Show/Hide comment form
For Americans, of whom I am one, another alternative characterization might be uncouth, a curious word not heard without its negative prefix (Ref: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/uncouth).