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written by Nina Kent , 05 February 2008

It's all about attitude isn't it?
Your reader didn't say, and perhaps was unable to ascertain, why her caller said, "I am sorry but I am not allowed to speak English - only French." Perhaps, as in England, company calls are monitored for quality which would be difficult in another language or as M.M said, she may have been reciting from a text. We should also ask how many people in England involved with telephone service industries speak French Ms Mitchell doesn't say why or in what way she has never felt particularly welcome here. She does say her French is pretty basic although she has been here for five years.

Why do we Brits insist on being welcomed when we are often aggressive, critical and do not learn the language? Why do we feel we have a right to be welcomed and accepted without any effort from us?
Many Brits I speak to, both here and when I return, wish to leave England (statistically true) and a reason often quoted is the number of foreigners arriving in Britain. Here in France we are the foreigners and not being able to communicate is not sufficient reason for total and immediate acceptance. We do not carry a great reputation for gentle friendliness.

Tolerance, learning the language and friendliness on the part of the visitor will take you a long way in this country of normally polite people. Nina Kent, Cannes

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written by R. Wall , 08 February 2008

Bugger! If you want to live in the country then you learn the langiage, don't you? Seems logical enough.

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written by Garry Moynihan , 11 February 2008

Reminiscent of the story I once read in an English language newspaper on one of the Costas:

Irate English lady to the rest of the bank queue after an unsuccessful altercation with the teller:

"Would you believe it? I've been living here for 12 years now and they STILL haven't learnt English"

Maybe apocryphal, but the attitude is obviously still around.

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written by R. Wall , 11 February 2008

I haven't been to Spain in many years but somehow I imagine that the attitude there is even worse than here. I have this image of Britons who just yell louder when they're not understood at first. It seems to me that Anna isn't that typical here in France. Most of my friends do speak French to some extent and many speak it much better than I do, I'm ashamed to say. But I'm working on it!

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written by BaronMuchausen , 09 March 2008

the general response here is "you're in france lady! speak french"

I'm not going down that route but I would like you to understand though....I worked for Hutchison 3G when I was a student and when the 3G network in the UK was in its infancy. I was reprimanded for speaking Italian to a customer.

However...during this era...when I worked for BT, we had departments that spoke many different languages. Its company policy...its nothing to do with your neighbour hating your guts.

I've been in France for 8 months yet...I still don't speak French and sometimes...I feel the locals a little hostile. yesterday I was in Italy....I found the locals overwhelmingly helpful and nice.

go figure.

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written by R. Wall , 10 March 2008

Sorry "Baron" but if you want stay here and fit in you're doing it wrong. One of the big problems with Britain is that too many immigrants don't speak the English language or embrace the local customs.

The people who move to France and don't speak French lose out in almost every way. They can't meet the nicer locals because they can't speak to them. They can't learn about all the good things about being here because they don't understand the language. All they get is the weather and that's not always what it's cracked up to be.

But if you're only here on work placement for a few months, that's different.

I agree that the Italians are more open and nicer to foreigners. But the French do tend to be nicer to foreigners than they are to their own kind! And if you speak some French (or at least make some effort) they are a whole lot nicer.

Normale!

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written by SmartyPants , 10 March 2008

Mr "Baron" must speak Italian (good for him, I wish I did!) because he says "I was reprimanded for speaking Italian to a customer."

Maybe his knowledge of the lingo is why Italians treat him better?

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written by BaronMuchausen , 10 March 2008

You know, you could be right. Speaking the language does help. However, in Italy for example the big mobile networks all have their automated info services in Italian, French, English, German and Spanish.

I'm on SFR here and before I discovered topping up at an ATM, topping up my mobile was painful.

I think that France as a country is less accepting to foreigners for fear of losing their identity. Commercially I think it makes so much more sense to make services accessibly to other language speakers.

Mind you, we live in a country where banks close at lunchtime and shops close on Sunday. The whole customer service concept is totally lost here.

Where I believe that the woman who was crying about SFR originally SHOULD speak French to an acceptable level, I think a lot leaves to be desired for Frances general commercial blindness, its about time they really woke up.

Does the original woman know that there are free lessons available to her?

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written by SmartyPants , 10 March 2008

It's all a matter of choice, isn't it? The banks close at lunchtime and shops close on Sunday because people put lifestyle first. Lifestyle to them means lunch and Sunday off with the family, not shopping or working.
I really don't see the point of moving to a country where they speak the same language we did back "home", have the same customs and habits they have at "home", eat drink and sleep like we did at "home". If we want things to be like they are at "home" we should just stay at "home" and we'll be happy there won't we?
It's the differences about France many of us like, not the similarities with "home".

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written by BaronMuchausen , 11 March 2008

I'm afraid SmartyPants, the only reason I came here was for a job which was too good too refuse. If someone can pay me the same as back "home", I'l be all over them like a cheap suit. France would be a great place to retire to....I'm not quite in that bracket yet.

Its the 21st Century....banks should not be closing at lunchtime. Shops should not be closing on Sundays....I'm sure there are thousands of students that would be willing to work these days...perhaps even people from less privileged backgrounds, so the whole "lifestyle" argument dosent really have much of a case I'm afraid.

France...to me, is the only country I've lived in where I witnessed this. Even in so called "3rd world " countries I've always felt them far more evolved than the French. Its all about personal perception I guess.

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written by Stuart , 20 March 2008

We are allegedly Europeans now and have the right to travel to, and reside, where we want. What is the point of this if the residents of member states don't like this? It is the way of things that the majority of those able to 'roam' are retirees like myself or job seekers. Due to our age we find it very difficult to learn the language to a full conversational level but by God we try. I have now found that the language in my part of SW France is the equivalent to a mixture of Geordie and Italian so we may be flogging the proverbial. I want to give SFR some business but I defy anyone but an expert french speaker to navigate their menu system when you call their helpline. With a quarter of a million plus potential English speaking customers I would have thought they would try? I find the french tradesmen are no different any other nationality, when they want our money they make no complaint about the shortcomings of our knowledge of French. Why can't the national companies have the same approach. It niggles me that if a lot of non-French speakers had not come here in 1944/45 the language would probably be German now and ironically, I can speak German!

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written by Al , 28 March 2008

Whose definition of 21st century do we use, th UK, USA, Europe, Africa? So do you mean that the island(s) containing the UK should determine the trading hours of the rest of Europe? Lets hope not, vive la difference...

Sure, the phone system is hard to navigate but have you tried Orange or Vodaphone in the UK as a non-english speaker. I solve this by going to the shop of the phone company and asking kindly for assistance. The people on the shop floor are so much easier to deal with.

With all this lovely weather, coastline, mountains etc we should be too busy enjoying ourselves fun to complain.

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written by BaronMuchausen , 07 April 2008

Al...

let me guess, you're retired and a bank being open at lunch time...or a post office isn't really that much of a big deal for you.


The France could learn a lot from the UK regarding trading hours....the rest of the World certainly has.

Vive le difference indeed......Vive le retirement more like!

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written by Carla Warrent , 07 April 2008

Surely you're not suggesting that France adopt UK social customs?
No thank you. Here, we don't want the dismal lifestyle, rampant crime, shorter life expectancies, child poverty and yob culture that is the inevitable result of making every decision according to what is good for business.
What truly meaningful advantage will lunchtime opening hours bring? I never have to go to my bank, nor do most people. That's what modern devices like ATMs and the internet are for.
May France NEVER become what you want it to be. We're not stupid enough to want that - which is why we choose to be here and not there.

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written by Brian M Halford , 09 April 2008

Whoaaa Carla! That is a bit hard. Muchausen is merely making the common mistake so many of us make in assuming that the priorities of one country should also be those of another country. After a while he will either leave France or come to the realisation that no one is right or wrong in matters like opening hours. They are just different in their preferences.
If we look at the UK at the moment we could easily conclude that Britain gets almost everything wrong, and that France gets most things right. But then we look at France a bit closer - with the unrest in the suburbs, the political corruption, the terrible driving habits and so many other issues - we could conclude that there is a lot France gets wrong also.
The real conclusion is that no country gets things all right or all wrong. They just have different priorities. A Frenchman puts his long relaxed lunchtimes and short working week much higher on his list of priorities than a Briton does. The Briton would rather have money. The Frenchman would rather have time-off. Neither is right or wrong - just different.

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written by Iain , 09 April 2008

Oh my god Carla! you're a complete idiot...tell me, when you think to yourself, do you hear an echo?

I can only assume that you don't work for a living? You're hubby has a good job and you sit about all day drinking gin?

Try stepping out your little comfort zone and you will see that Baron makes some excellent points.

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written by arthur.B , 09 April 2008

I agree Iain,

Carla has many opinions on many subjects as can be seen elsewhere in these discussion pages.
Unfortunately there appears to be not a lot going on in between the ears.
I work full time and in relation to one of Ms Warrents earlier posts,I would very much like my bank to be open during lunchtime as it's the only time that I can go there to discuss things such as loans,mortgages,insurance etc.
Put the cap back on the gin bottle lady and get a reality check !

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written by Iain , 09 April 2008

I'm confused by this dismal lifestyle she speaks of in the UK.....and the rampant crime and the child poverty.

I think maybe Carla watches too much SKY NEWS. Its a news channel for those with low IQs.

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written by Carla Warrent , 09 April 2008

Don't watch Sky News, sorry. But I do read a lot of British papers on line and it's a simple fact that the UK holds dismal records in many areas, especially the number of Britons who are leaving (they do so for reasons, don't you think?). As for crime, child poverty, lamentable public transport, hospital infections, cancer survival rates, household debt, illiteracy and many other factors, it doesn't take much digging to find the truth. That is that the UK has is certainly not better than France in most areas... except minor details like opening hours.
If it really was a better place to be, you'd be there.

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written by Riviera Reporter , 09 April 2008

Vigorously expressed opinions on all subjects are welcome on this site but please restrain from making gratuitous or aggressive personal insults. They debase the writer, contribute nothing to the debate and will eventually result in posts being deleted.

Rebut if you wish but please respect the rights of others to have their say without being insulted for not agreeing with your own point of view.

There are logical limits and some of you are very close to overstepping them.

Admin

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written by Iain , 16 April 2008

Carla,

Try doing a google search for 'Clichy-sous-Bois' then come back and tell how wonderful the French are.

The UK is, in my opinion head and shoulders above France. Sarkozy can even recognise this by trying to adopt Britain's work ethics.

As I stated previously, I'm in France as a contractor...as soon as the job is completed and the next offer comes in - I'll be all over them like a Nun sandwich.

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written by Sly , 17 April 2008

Iain that is totally disingenuous. If you want to cherry pick, any country can be shown to be lacking in some ways. Even the world's most economically successful country - the USA - has its dismal sides.

France isn't perfect but in areas that are important to many of us like surviving serious illness, crime levels, private debt, life expectancy, literacy, affordable and efficient rail transport, free access to higher education, etc, it is well ahead of the UK.

If Britons are leaving their homeland in greater numbers than any other western developed nation, it is for a reason.

I migrate between France and the UK constantly and I see the good and bad in both. But on the whole, France is far ahead of the UK in a great many things (but not all) that really count. The fact that my bank isn't open over lunchtime is not a significant factor to me or to most people I know. It would be convenient if it was, but not essential.

If you are going to Google things and use them as examples try google.co.uk with words like "yob culture", "life expectancy", "cancer survival rates", "street crime", "child delinquency", "teenage pregnancy", "NHS dentistry", "binge drinking", "MRSA", "Millennium Dome", "Terminal 5".... etc etc.

See how easy it is to cherry pick?

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written by arthur.B , 17 April 2008

Yes it is easy to cherry pick Carla

You should try google.fr for 'Banlieu','Greve', 'Deficit', 'Integration',
'Chomage', 'racism'etc etc.
There are just as many sink estates in France as there are in the uk.Crime and drug abuse is rife.The french prison system is collapsing under the strain(just like it is in the UK)
The only difference is that these huge problems are all tucked conveniently away on the Cote D'azur so that tourists and dwellers in upmarket areas dont' see them.
Would you like to come on a trip to L'ariane or the big housing estate in Valluris of an evening(or during the day for that matter) ?
You might change your somewhat blinkered opinions if you care to investigate.

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written by arthur.B , 17 April 2008

'free access to higher education'

forgot to mention this one-Carla there is only 'free access to education' if the parents of the student don't have any money.
Anyone who is in a middle income bracket has to pay for their offspring to attend university !!
I don't mind an honest debate but PLEASE DO YOUR HOMEWORK before writing completely false and innacurate rubbish.

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written by Sly , 17 April 2008

The French system is very like the Irish one. State universities and public trade schools are free of tution fees (but some books and lodging expenses are subject to income-based support "bourses"). Admission is by exam or academic qualification.
Off to the UK later today for 2 weeks. Will leave you lot to get on with...

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written by Iain , 28 April 2008

You know...I spent the last 3 days in the UK. Its beautiful, people are courteous & helpful - even down to the staff at the airport security.

The only thing I see that the French has over the UK...is its weather....and ability to Welcome a nazi occupation.

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written by Ghost Girl , 29 April 2008

Whoo-hoo! Believe I'm right in saying that one of the reasons so many people choose to leave the UK is because of the number of immigrants who either can't or won't integrate and adapt to the British way of life and seem to expect Britain to change her rules to suit them.

Seems to me that certain people on this forum could be considered guilty of exactly this same behaviour in France.

I get fed up with expats bleating and whingeing because things are done differently here, compared to what we have been used to in their own countries. What right do we have to expect France to change and why should she? Simply to make life a bit easier for a small percentage of expats, most of whom actually live pretty comfortably compared to many French nationals in some areas of France?

In case some of you haven't noticed, we are the immigrants here...isn't it up to us to learn the language (and no pathetic excuses: where there's a will, there's a way) and make a real effort to integrate?
Tsk! *rolls eyes* Talk about the pot calling the kettle black...

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written by Iain , 29 April 2008

I've never once bleated about people in the UK not talking English. As previously stated I'm here on a work placement.

Never in my life did I see France as some kind of Utopia and if I had, I would have learned the language as I did Italian and Spanish. I find France an inconvenient way of life for someone in their early 30's. Probably its great when you're in your 50's .

I'm not and prefer a life where I can be at ease. France dosent offer this to me and as a result I will be leaving soon. Its all about what you want in life. I've lived in Italy, Colombia, UK, Belgium and Holland and never had the problems that I've had here.

Maybe its just me though......you should try a morning at the Prefecture in Nice though. Its pretty despicable. I seen pregnant women barged to the ground as people ran for positions in a queue. I seen policemen shriek "Allez Allez!" as it all went down. This is not a civilised country.

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written by Jerd , 26 August 2008

I thought we were talking about SFR being useless. Personally I think France is a great place to live, depite the hostility of the French. You could argue that's part of the charm right?
My bone is with SFR who, when you call their overseas helpline from outside France, give you an automated message telling you to call a local France only number like 1026. In order to activate my roaming I have two options. I do it online, which requires a code, which they will text me, but hey wait! I don't have roaming so I can't receive texts. Or I go back to France for 30 seconds so that can receive texts or call the 1026 number. Now where did I park my tardis?? Never mind. One large Gallic shrug and alls well right?
Bollocks.

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written by Walgren , 02 September 2008

I've found that the "the hostility of the French" is a regional thing. It certainly applies on the Riviera and in Paris but I've found that it's not at all the case in the other regions. On the contrary.

As for being "a great place to live", that is largely a relative notion. France is great in ways other countries are not and is not so great where other countries are better. It's a trade-off here like everywhere.

But on the whole and taking everything into account I can't think of a better place to live. If I could, that's where I'd be!

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written by net man , 20 December 2008

I disagree with the comments that to visit a country you should learn that country's language. English is a defato standard now, much as, in case you are a technical type, the computer languages C and C are standard and are not in French, Russian or Chinese for that matter. So the continuing "resistance" of France to English in the communication industry is futile and will only backfire, as is obvious from the comment.

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written by alain , 23 December 2008

That is the problem! we have to resist and fight against as hard as we could. Every country should protect its language and identity.

I m french speaking. When i m in England i speak English. I have no allergy to other languages. I was taught " when in Rome do as Romans do".

That means for me : respect

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written by PammyK , 30 December 2008

Net man, from a purely technical viewpoint English will do almost anywhere. But to get the most out of living in a country it's far better to be able to talk to the locals in their own language. I learned French and find it opens doors that remain closed to those who haven't bothered. If I lived in Spain, I'd learn Spanish and have a better life there for it. It's a question of courtesy.
I have a friend who works with French people in a company where English is the working language. But after hours, he mixes with his colleagues socially in French and gains something those who don't bother will never get ? the respect that alain mentions above. Believe me, being respected makes life a whole lot easier.
But it is different for a visitor as opposed to a resident. I think everyone understands that visitors might not speak the lingo.

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written by PammyK , 28 January 2009

There are schools in Britain where no one speaks English as a first language. If the Daily Mail is to be believed.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1130077/The-schools-NO-ONE-speaks-English-language.html

(Sorry I don't know how to put an URL in a comment)

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written by David L. , 26 February 2009

I've enjoyed reading the feisty ebb-and-flow debate on this page. Thanks one and all.